Tuesday, June 20, 2006

What are Men Doing about it?

It's been refreshing to hear from the guys out there. I'm glad to know the CDC report is stirring up conversation. My question for all you male readers, in light of the fact that you agree with these stats, is what specifically are you doing to get to marriage? What steps are you taking to move toward the altar? Maybe the gals are missing your cues and need a little insight.

The reality remains: despite what we say we want, men and women are marrying later than ever. Best case scenario is that our actions are not matching up with our desires. Now that we've identified the desire, let's talk about actions.

19 Comments:

At 2:29 PM, Blogger DanL said...

I suspect you won’t like this, but what exactly can we do about it? I mean, I pray about it and try to meet new people (I’ll admit it, I’m shy and not very good at this, but I’m improving) but this doesn’t seem to have gotten me anywhere yet. I’m hoping that when I finish grad school in a few weeks I will have more time to meet people, but ever since finished college it seems to be really hard to meet new people. That I work in a field dominated by men doesn’t help. I guess I could do eharmony or similar, but I won’t since: I don’t like the idea of evaluating every women meet solely on the possibility of a romantic/marriage potential, it seems rather desperate to me, and don’t care for the way other men I’ve seen go this route relate to women/dating. I’ve heard others suggest I attend a larger church to better facilitate meeting new people but I like the church I’m attending, I don’t like church hopping, the church I’m currently attending isn’t exactly small, and I know I would be totally lost in a “mega-church” environment.

I know one older couple is tells me they are keeping there eyes open for me. I know they’ve introduced others before, but I guess they haven’t found anyone “suitable” for me yet (it’s been a few years). I’d feel really uncomfortable having any sort of relationship with anyone I didn’t know as a friend for some time first too. In practice though, it is hard to find anyone to give you any help, or even encouragement, like this. I seems like most people you try to seek out for advice will either lecture you on contentment and being called to singleness, or they talk about they’re being tons of fish in the sea is if you were just temporally frustrated and you’ll be all over this next week.

I don’t really understand the last paragraph in this post. It seems to imply that either men and women don’t really desire marriage, or they are failing to act (or act properly) on those desires. Surely there are external factors that complicate moving towards marriage.

 
At 8:24 PM, Blogger Firinnteine said...

Some men are actively pursuing women.

Some men are considering whether they should pursue any of the women they know (the fact that you don't see a man "doing something" doesn't mean he's not considering what, if anything, should be done; presumably prayer is also important, and many of us have spent a lot of time doing that, whether anyone ever knew about it or saw the results or not).

Some men are working, educating themselves, or generally training themselves in manhood, in order to be better husbands and fathers.


That being said, I will readily admit that a lot of men need a kick in the pants.... The considering/waiting/praying stage can sometimes stretch out a lot longer than it really should.


I'm interested in what other young men think.

 
At 10:01 AM, Blogger Ken said...

The problem I find in a lot of churches now is that the older men are not discipling the younger men, at least not on a wide scale. Men are confused about not only what their roles are but what does it mean to be a "real" man. And what I mean by a "real" man is not what the world tells us but what Bible says is one. Grace motivated and a follower of Christ.

 
At 4:56 PM, Blogger Firinnteine said...

Ken--

I agree. I've talked to a couple of older men I really respect, and one thing that they've pointed out is no one trained them to be men either. A lot of them seem to have worked it out pretty well anyway, to some degree, but it can only pass by "osmosis" for so long. There's a multi-generational failure to pass on the principles of manhood.

God grant us the grace to learn to be true men, and to raise our sons in the love and strength of Jesus Christ.

 
At 9:33 PM, Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

In response to Ken, I believe a large problem is that men have been conditioned to fend for themselves. "Got a personal problem? Suck it up and deal it, son." So what incentive would there be to take young men aside and mentor them? Society thinks that men already have enough privileges so they don't need our attention. The result is that entire demographic of men born in 60s-80s have been left without any sound direction on what manhood looks like.

There are promising signs that some men are waking up and coming to a knowledge of manhood. What relationship it will have to marriage, per se, is a question I think is yet to be resolved.

- Anakin (scripturallysingle.blogspot.com)

 
At 6:25 PM, Blogger dabears27 said...

I don't know what Anakin is talking about. It's not a whole generation of men, it's men without fathers who generally have problems in this area. Most of us who had dads (especially good ones) know how to be a man. My pagan father was a wonderful man who taught me how to be a man and I was married at 25. Stop making excuses and get an education, career and get married. No wonder the muslims are taking over this world.

Da Bears

 
At 11:33 AM, Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

In response to Da Bears statement:

I am glad that he has a positive relationship with his father. However, I think I know some men who had loving fathers in the home ... who were still nonetheless unprepared to face the web of falsehoods about manhood that plague our society. The statement, "Stop making excuses and get an education, career, and get married" is a facile one to make, but I fear it is not particulary helpful.

 
At 7:50 PM, Blogger Jake said...

I don't think it's a matter of an absent vs. present father, or a loving vs. unloving one, but of one who believed in teaching his sons to be a man vs. one who didn't. I definitely often feel like a big wuss who might provoke the statement "Stop making excuses and get an education, career, and get married." But many of us have baby boomer parents who were the first generation to undergo large-scale adolescent rebellion, pledged "if I ever have kids, I'm not going to [discipline them/care if they smoke pot/make them sit up straight and say please and thank you/whatever]," and stuck to their guns as adults. My dad used to openly talk about resenting his mother's efforts to "mold" him and force him to behave when he was young, and always said "you can't control your kids" and "it's important for kids to be able to do what all the other kids are doing." And he practiced what he preached. Consequently, though my dad was around, and I never thought he and my mom didn't love me, I never received any instruction in, well, life--from the little things like table manners to the big things like preparing for life as an adult man--because my dad didn't believe that kids should. ISTM that that philosophical holdover from the sixties affected lots of families of my generation.

To get back to the original topic: I admit, I'm not doing much. But then, at 29, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. Where do you meet single Christian women post-college? My last relationship, which I wanted to progress to marriage, ended at the girl's behest. I then tried signing up for eHarmony, but at the end of their questionnaire I was rejected as one of the 20% who are unmatchable! I signed up for another online Christian dating site, but so far, no profiles of women in my general geographical area have caught my eye, and I certainly haven't been contaced by any. There are a few single women at my church, but none who interest me. As for meeting women out there in the world, in a coffee shop or on the train for example, I have heard tales of that happening from Christians who life in the Bible belt, but I'm the liberal northeast, and while miracles can happen, my experience has been that the only place one runs into fellow Christians around here is in a church setting. So what exactly am I supposed to do?

One might ask: these girls I acknowledge are out there but who don't interest me, why don't they interest me? Because this is the internet, where anonymity reigns and I cannot be booed and pelted with rotten fruit, I will freely admit: looks. I still harbor the hope of marrying a girl who meets whatever looks standards I have in my mind. But I suppose I could theoretically give up on that. Is that, then, what I'm supposed to do? Forget about looks entirely and marry a girl I find homely but who's at least willing to marry me?

 
At 10:28 AM, Blogger Mike Theemling said...

In response to jake,

At least you're honest, and many Christian guys really aren't. Research backs up what you say: Appearance is huge. It gives people a big advantage in terms of getting dates, job offers, etc.

In addition, I doubt that anyone would suggest you marry someone who you don't find physically attractive. God is the one who created the concept of beauty and sexual desire which for a guy is largely based upon looks. It's not shallow to expect to be attracted to your wife.

That being said, however, I will say that for both guys and girls, first glances are merely a starting point. Attraction can grow or diminish based upon a person's actions, demeanor, etc. What I mean is that a moderately attractive girl who smiles a lot and has a positive attitude will always be more appealing than a supermodel who never smiles and does nothing but complain.

The problem is though that in the online eniornment, we often don't get an opportunity to see that side of a person. All we see is a photo and we make our judgement calls on that. That's why I think for the most part the online dating scene (even "Christian" ones) is a failure.

The problem now is what do the majority of "average Joe's" do to make themselves more appealing? Although a lot of it is simple serendipity I do believe there are ways to make maximize your opportunities:
- Go to places where the young ladies are. This may sound like a "duh" but I think we need as guys need to do more than just our single's group. College campuses, the mall (employees), etc.
- Wear nice clothing. Yes, there is a time for the jeans/T-shirt deal, but showing YOU care about your appearance too may impress her
- Be bold. Don't be afraid to ask for a date. Offer your number. Yes, you'll get lots of strikes but at least the girl will know you are interested if her mind changes. All it takes is one hit.
- Ask friends/family for setups. A person is more willing to go out with a stranger if it's per a recommendation from someone she trusts. Of course, this kind of technique can be tricky, but I think it's a great way
- Pray. 'Nuff said.

 
At 3:29 PM, Blogger dabears27 said...

Dude, I can't believe that at 29 you are asking these questions. Of course don't marry a homely (ugly) girl. Marry a girl you are attracted to (unless you are only attracted to supermodel types)Marriage is hard enough, women (and men) do go downhill as the years progress. Also, based on what you are saying, I think that you are doing all the right things to get a wife. Keep it up.

 
At 8:07 PM, Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

Hi Jake,

I understand your anxieties about feeling adrift as a young man. I, too, felt that way when I became Christian and found myself among a different subculture. My advice? I think we should distinguish between cultural ideals and biblical ideals. I suppose many of us men would like to eat healthy, be financially savy, have excellent interpersonal skills, be married, have smart children, be active in our communities, etc. These are all good things, but they are they the crux of Biblical manhood? We should read the Beatitudes. Do the people Jesus praise sound like Mr. Success? I suspect "Biblical manhood" is not what many of us have convinced ourselves it is.

Second point: You speak of your difficulty in find a religious woman that seems compatible with you. You represent the reality for a lot of Bible-believers. A Christian man's religious convictions often means the dating pool is shrunk for him. As much as he wants to marry, the pond he finds himself in is often not very well-stocked. He runs to online dating, but this medium is rife with pitfalls. Forgive me for the analogy, but online dating is like a casino. The few success stories lure in the prospects who lay down their money hoping for a similiar payout. But possiblity does not equal probability. So, religious men go out and get burned on the matchmakng sites. I understand what you are going through. That is why I reject the facile platitudes that "men just need to step and take initiative," etc.

Third point you raise: Physical attractiveness is important, since physical intimacy is a required component of marriage (1 Cor 7:2ff). Therefore, I would not recommend you getting involved with a woman who is unattractive to you. I am realistic enough to know that many of us look "so-so" or "okay." But looking "okay" is not the same as someone whose appearances will be a hindrance in the marital relationship.

 
At 1:04 PM, Blogger gortexgrrl said...

Anakin and Jake--"A Christian man's religious convictions often means the dating pool is shrunk for him." What on earth are you talking about?! Do you know that there are at least 2 young single Christian women for every single Christian man? And it gets worse for women in their 30's, and even worse than that for those in their 40's! Eharmony and other Christian singles sites have a wealth of Christian women and a serious shortage of men for them. These are readily accessible facts that have been written about extensively in Christianity Today ("O Brothers, where art thou?"). Don't any of you guys feel humbled by that?

With these odds, if you guys think there aren't enough attractive, godly women out there, then maybe your expectations need some reality testing. Unless you yourselves are attractive and successful, you probably will need to "lower your standards" like everybody else. Almost all men, at least unconsciously (if not deliberately) go through the risk entailing process of "aiming high" and asking their way down their ladder of options. All except evangelical men, of course, who are taught to see this as "ungodly". But as they "wait on the Lord" (btw Jake, women hardly ever answer men's internet ads), their untested expectations stay as high and dormant as Mt. St.Helens!

There's no way around it, guys: you must get out there and get your face slapped a few times to find out who you are and who you're not, who you can have and who you can't have.

 
At 1:24 PM, Blogger Firinnteine said...

Physical attraction is important. Between Song of Solomon (possibly the greatest love-poem ever penned) and Proverbs 5, it is clear that husbands are right to delight in the physical beauty of their wives. This is Biblical.

That being said, I Peter 3, I Timothy 2, and Proverbs 31 (among other passages) make it clear that physical beauty is not the primary consideration for a man seeking a Godly wife. Further, they redefine true physical beauty as based ultimately on the beauty of inner character. I have to doubt whether pictures on the internet are a helpful way to judge that....

May I make an observation? Humans are holistic beings, not souls vaguely connected to bodies. Attraction, real attraction in the Christian sense, is part of relationship. And relationship includes the entire person. It is my experience that many women who, while reasonably pretty, did not strike me as overwhelmingly beautiful, became increasingly attractive as I developed friendship with them and saw their love for God and good character. There was not just a spiritual draw, but I actually appreciated their physical beauty more. On the other side of things, some women who seemed stunning physically I found much less attractive as I began to talk with them and discovered that there was little spiritual depth as a foundation to their external beauty. They were like empty masks.

All of that to say -- don't give up on physical beauty, but don't consider it in a vacuum, either.

(I'm sorry I can't offer any practical ideas on meeting potential mates; hopefully someone with more wisdom and experience than myself has some thoughts on that point.)

 
At 9:05 PM, Blogger Anakin Niceguy said...

Gortexgrrl writes:



Anakin and Jake--"A Christian man's religious convictions often means the dating pool is shrunk for him." What on earth are you talking about?! Do you know that there are at least 2 young single Christian women for every single Christian man? And it gets worse for women in their 30's, and even worse than that for those in their 40's! Eharmony and other Christian singles sites have a wealth of Christian women and a serious shortage of men for them. These are readily accessible facts that have been written about extensively in Christianity Today ("O Brothers, where art thou?"). Don't any of you guys feel humbled by that?




To be honest, I am not sure that makes much of a difference to many men. There exists the possibility that a significant number of women only go after a few men. We do a disserve to the truth if we assume that women are entirely passive in the "game of love." They signal receptivity, and they have the power to say No. Men know this all too well. Part of maturity is rejecting the mentality of victimhood. Unfortunately, many women show lack of insight in how they sabotage their own chances of having a happy relationship with a man. Raw numbers also do not take into account the possibility the number of women who are simply not marriage material. We have just read about some statistics that show women are less marriage-minded than men. How do we expect men to ameliorate this situation? Start forcing women to get married against their will?



With these odds, if you guys think there aren't enough attractive, godly women out there, then maybe your expectations need some reality testing. Unless you yourselves are attractive and successful, you probably will need to "lower your standards" like everybody else. Almost all men, at least unconsciously (if not deliberately) go through the risk entailing process of "aiming high" and asking their way down their ladder of options. All except evangelical men, of course, who are taught to see this as "ungodly". But as they "wait on the Lord" (btw Jake, women hardly ever answer men's internet ads), their untested expectations stay as high and dormant as Mt. St.Helens!

There's no way around it, guys: you must get out there and get your face slapped a few times to find out who you are and who you're not, who you can have and who you can't have.



Gortexgrrl, it is obvious that you feel very strongly about this matter. I am curious as to why this is and would like to know about your personal experiences concerning the expectations of men, etc.

 
At 5:56 PM, Blogger gortexgrrl said...

Women, men and expectations...
...well, let's agree that that one works both ways!

It is true that the female position isn't entirely passive, as she can be receptive, but being in the position of attracting (and keeping) is still a more passive position that being that of "pursuer". Men are in the position of being the pursuers by virtue of biology: they are motivated mostly by attraction to whatever degree of beauty is accessible (not that I'm not knocking that). Women seem to have much longer lists of what we want (not that I'm claiming that as grounds for mental or moral superiority!) and rarely do we feel physically attracted to a guy from the get-go which seems to make it harder for a man to figure out what to do to get the woman he wants to reciprocate the attraction (opt for a lesser challenge??)

Nevertheless, in the female position of attracting rather than pursuing per se (although we all know some renegade women who "go after" men, as you put it-but let's not get distracted by the exceptions!) we are in a more passive position of having to be pursued (and still are to this day, when it comes to godly women who want marriage, not flings), so the onus has always been on us to compromise and give the guys who were interested in us a chance (rather than "go after" the ones we wanted, who would have gone after us if they were interested and actually back away when they sense pursuit-fair enough...or try to exploit a sexual opportunity). So Anakin, it's a shame that you don't give women credit for giving guys a chance as much as we have been already, especially in light the current shortage of men in our churches, which does explain the majority of the protracted singleness among Christian women: look how many beautiful Christian women end up men with much less than their physical equals (don't say it's the insides that count, otherwise her beauty would be a moot point).

Christian man shortage notwithstanding, churches are not meant to be bargain basements for wife shopping, but that's what has become of the situation for women.

But now that women aren't financially dependent on men anymore, they can choose to go without if they can't find their physical/mental/spiritual equal, and do much better living on their own than men. With the strength of their financial bargaining chip now devalued, men have a more complicated task of having to deal with the rest of the items on lists of "what women want", such as interpersonal skills. I don't want to sound like a pollyanna, but I believe that this is how God is transforming the world.

 
At 9:45 PM, Blogger K said...

gortexgrrl: "look how many beautiful Christian women end up men with much less than their physical equals"

I'm personally not seeing this in my circles. As a man, I'd love to date out of my league, but I'm just not observing it. Young couples around me seem about equally matched on average, I suppose, but how could we objectively confirm or deny this?

"Christian man shortage notwithstanding, churches are not meant to be bargain basements for wife shopping, but that's what has become of the situation for women."
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I seem to be following you around the Internet because I'm seeing the EXACT OPPOSITE SITUATION (Camerin Courtney herself admitted that a church she recently visited had a male surplus). Perhaps some online forum could "clear the local market inefficiencies," but another male poster carefully contacted 20 ladies on a Christian dating site (who, by virtue signing up for a site, are indicating that they are the Christian women who are unsatisfied with the men available in their lives) and was completely ignored by 18, got one perfunctory “got your email” response, and one actual human-generated reply. Unless this guy has some sort of deficiency that is not apparent from his posts (which is fully possible), this is not behavior that I would expect from people who are dying to meet someone.

“With the strength of their financial bargaining chip now devalued, men have a more complicated task of having to deal with the rest of the items on lists of "what women want", such as interpersonal skills.”
Indeed, but are Christian women relaxing their standards in the “must be a good provider” department, or raising them to “must make more than my hefty salary AND be a Super Christian AND be entertaining?” Of course, the single Christian guys I know are almost invariably high achievers (my friends with “only a bachelors” in a decent-paying engineering specialty who own a house together are on the low end of the education and income scale of single Christian men around me), so they usually don’t have a problem making more than the girls around them.

Anyway, I really feel the same thing in my area but in reverse, and I understand it’s not fun. I think it’s generally hard to meet people after college, and single men and women seem to sort themselves into parallel universes, with the women going to major cities and often working in full-time Christian service, while the men cluster in places that sociologists call “nerdistans” and slave away in their cubicles. So you pick an average man and he'll say he doesn't meet women, and pick an average woman and she's not meeting many men, and they're both right.

Of course, I've heard the Barna numbers that you mention, but I'd really need to see them broken down at least as follows:
-Limited to the TRULY SINGLE, not merely "unmarried but I've been with my boyfriend Jack for 7 years"
-Age
-Prior marriages
-Existing children

And, to really know what's going on, some indication of the appearance and career patterns of each group would help. I have a few theories of how a technical numerical advantage becomes "water, water everywhere but not a drop to drink."

 
At 9:46 PM, Blogger K said...

gortexgrrl: "look how many beautiful Christian women end up men with much less than their physical equals"

I'm personally not seeing this in my circles. As a man, I'd love to date out of my league, but I'm just not observing it. Young couples around me seem about equally matched on average, I suppose, but how could we objectively confirm or deny this?

"Christian man shortage notwithstanding, churches are not meant to be bargain basements for wife shopping, but that's what has become of the situation for women."
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I seem to be following you around the Internet because I'm seeing the EXACT OPPOSITE SITUATION (Camerin Courtney herself admitted that a church she recently visited had a male surplus). Perhaps some online forum could "clear the local market inefficiencies," but another male poster carefully contacted 20 ladies on a Christian dating site (who, by virtue signing up for a site, are indicating that they are the Christian women who are unsatisfied with the men available in their lives) and was completely ignored by 18, got one perfunctory “got your email” response, and one actual human-generated reply. Unless this guy has some sort of deficiency that is not apparent from his posts (which is fully possible), this is not behavior that I would expect from people who are dying to meet someone.

“With the strength of their financial bargaining chip now devalued, men have a more complicated task of having to deal with the rest of the items on lists of "what women want", such as interpersonal skills.”
Indeed, but are Christian women relaxing their standards in the “must be a good provider” department, or raising them to “must make more than my hefty salary AND be a Super Christian AND be entertaining?” Of course, the single Christian guys I know are almost invariably high achievers (my friends with “only a bachelors” in mechanical engineering who own a house together are on the low end of the education and income scale around me), so they usually don’t have a problem making more than the girls around them.

Anyway, I really feel the same thing in my area but in reverse, and I understand it’s not fun. I think it’s generally hard to meet people after college, and single men and women seem to sort themselves into parallel universes, with the women going to major cities and often working in full-time Christian service, while the men cluster in places that sociologists call “nerdistans” and slave away in their cubicles. So you pick an average man and he'll say he doesn't meet women, and pick an average woman and she's not meeting many men, and they're both right.

Of course, I've heard the Barna numbers that you mention, but I'd really need to see them broken down at least as follows:
-Limited to the TRULY SINGLE, not merely "unmarried but I've been with my boyfriend Jack for 7 years"
-Age
-Prior marriages
-Existing children

And, to really know what's going on, some indication of the appearance and career patterns of each group would help. I have a few theories of how a technical numerical advantage becomes "water, water everywhere but not a drop to drink."

 
At 10:11 PM, Blogger K said...

And, in response to the original "what do you DO about it?"

* Try to keep a fashionable wardrobe

* Read a fair bit on relationship topics

* INITIATE AND GET REJECTED A LOT

* Worry about how many months it's been since I met an eligible girl

* INITIATE AND GET REJECTED MORE

* Try Web site with dismal results (Effectively ignored by all but 1 girl, who, after a few months of enjoying the attention of having me for a penpal and rejecting my offers to talk and/or a meet at a public place, finally said she now had a boyfriend but would love to keep being penpals)

* In many cases, learn that within 1 - 3 years that one of the girls who rejected me is engaged

* INITIATE AND GET REJECTED

But I'm more concerned by the lack of opportunities to initiate, and the lack of enthusiasm that I have even for some of the girls I initiate with than the rejection.

In line with the other poster who got 18/20 nonresponders online, I have found Christian girls to often have INCREDIBLY POOR MANNERS. A typical "response" when I try to call a girl from church to get together is for her to not answer her phone, not return my voice mail, and not return my second voice mail. Similar behavior is common over email. Whatever happend to "no, thanks," or even "no thanks, dork?"

For the record, I'm in my twenties, about 6'3," graduated magna cum laude in a very difficult career-oriented major on a full merit scholarship, own my own business, and was ranked a "7" on a popular appearance-rating Web site this year.

 
At 7:28 PM, Blogger gortexgrrl said...

k,
You've provided a very interesting and comprehensive glimpse of the landscape from a guy's point of view and I do appreciate it. 2 out of 20 responses is about par for the internet, on secular and Christian sites for both men and women who initiate contact (although I think men might be somewhat more likely to respond, they are more likely to keep dating the ones they initated).

Not answering emails or phone calls from people who are trying to initate that you're not interested in may sound rude, but it's par for the course for both sexes (a male variation of that one is "I'll call you" and then it doesn't happen). Personally, I'd rather not get a no-go call from a guy...if he doesn't call me within a week, I get it that he's not interested-- fair enough (but if you've been seeing someone a few times, it is rude to just disappear). Christians, especially women, seem to have more "righteous expectations" about "he/she should call", etc. when it comes to initial/very early contacts.

Speaking of that 2/20 ratio, in almost all cultures, men accept that there is a certain amount of rejection that goes along with finding a mate (even for attractive guys-- let's face it: most women don't find most men that attractive at the outset). For example, in Latin countries the guys will ask out tons of women until they have a short list-- and do so with a certain amount of sport and humor, which seems to buffer their egos and hone their social skills (being entertaining, but dignified-- not just "nice"-- REALLY goes a long way...no man can expect to get that hiding out in "Nerdistan" as you aptly call it).

Rejection is the price men pay for having the perogative of pursuit. Although less acutely painful, not being pursued by the man you like is the female equivilent. The shortage of men is the reality for single women in the church, whether it seems that way to you or not. Camerin reported the church with the male surplus as an EXCEPTION. It's great that you're suggesting more research that involves breaking down the numbers more in terms of things like prior marriages/relationships, kids, appearance but then again you'd have to look at men on those variables and add in the deal breakers more common to men too, such as drugs, crime, debts, porn, etc...and limited relationship skills (the nerd factor emerges again!).

Sure, many of those surplus women could consider supply and demand and lower their standards (and many do), but then, when they are unable to acquire an attraction for the guy, they're often accused of waiting his time or leading him on. It's not much of a choice.

As I've said before, men get by these days simply by being good providers. And as Red Green says "if you can't be handsome, you might as well be handy" and to that, I'd also toss in social skills, which you're getting some theory on by reading books about relationships-- good on ya. Yes, I know that there are a lot of women who need work in that area, but they do get a bit of a head start in that area (and there's LOT'S of research supporting that). It's no longer something that men can afford to go without.

 

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